For the sin of self-righteousness . . .
I found some of the comments to this post unpleasant, mostly because the commenters were right. One reason why I've posted a lot about problems in my Conservative community recently was to balance my posts about problems in the Orthodox community, for which I've been criticized. Maybe I'm just too critical in general. But nu, isn't one of the purposes of having a blog to give the blogger a place to kvetch?
posted by Shira Salamone at 1:04 PM
11 Comments:
I certainly think you had every right to complain.
First about the decision to of the ritual committee to allow baked goods from bakeries not under rabbinincal supervision, and
Second by this person violating Shabbat for the purposes of the synagogue.
It is one thing if one wants to violate Shabbat on their own, but to do so in a communal fashion in the name of a Conservative synagogue is outrageous. Buying on Shabbat is not just an "Orthodox" issue, even the conservative understanding of the laws of Shabbat forbid something like that.
It is possible that this person didn't know this. Perhaps your synagogue should have rules to prevent things like this from happening, as I am certainly aware of other C shuls having rules like this. I'm frankly surprised that your synagogue allows unhechshered cakes, being in NY. Usually the only places that allow things like that are places that have few or no kosher establishments in the area. Then again I know of C shuls that have rules that things brought in must be 100% kosher but these rules are violated without consequence. Once I was at a C kiddush and I wanted to make sure that the baked goods where kosher, and I was repeatedly told, "It is our rule that everything must be kosher." But further investigation found that the items in question for from a non-kosher bakery.
I strongly suspect that this person didn't understand that one is not permitted to use, or even carry, money on Shabbat/Sabbath, and that, therefore, buying food for the shul on Shabbat is a big no-no. I don't know whether the problem will be dealt with formally, through the establishmnet of a rule by the Ritual Committee, or informally, through an educational process, but I'm sure this will come up in the near future.
"I'm frankly surprised that your synagogue allows unhechshered cakes, being in NY. Usually the only places that allow things like that are places that have few or no kosher establishments in the area."
That was the basis of my protest, but I was overruled. In defense of the Ritual Committee, I must state that most of our congregants are seniors, many of whom use canes or walkers, and the occasional wheelchair. So going out of the immediate area to buy a cake from a kosher establishment is considered a hardship.
"Then again I know of C shuls that have rules that things brought in must be 100% kosher but these rules are violated without consequence. Once I was at a C kiddush and I wanted to make sure that the baked goods where kosher, and I was repeatedly told, "It is our rule that everything must be kosher." But further investigation found that the items in question for from a non-kosher bakery."
I think there are different understandings, among Conservative congregants, as to what is defined as kosher. The official position of the Conservative Movement is probably that food should be certified kosher, especially in areas in which food with hasgacha (rabbinical supervision) is readilty available. Unofficially, though, there's still a lot of ingredient-reading among the laity, meaning that any food or drink, particularly if it's dairy or vegetarian, that doesn't have blatantly treif/non-kosher ingredients is consider kosher, or, at least "kosher enough for me."
While certainly not normative 2010 Orthodox behavior, I'm not sure that "ingredient reading" isn't actually 100% legitimate for things that Bishul Akum wouldn't apply to, a list that has been illegitimately expanded.
The concept of a Rabbinic Trademark is a new one, and it isn't terribly clear that there was much in the way of supervision in Europe outside of Dairy/Meat, the areas that would matter.
That said, industrial pre-processed food is relatively new.
I'm not a scholar on this, but I find it doubtful that early 20th Century European or American Jews worried about getting canned fruits/vegetables from gentiles, except amongst the extremely impoverished Eastern Europeans that couldn't afford it anyway.
Any ingredient over 2% has to be reported, and while I realize the Halachic standard is 1.67%, that also seems like a level of precision that might be of a bit more recent vintage.
I think that modern Kashrut Halacha might be VERY different if the Feds had lowered their threshold to 1.5% or 1% when R' Moshe Feinstein was still the leading Posek.
Just to clarify my first comment, "one is not permitted to use, or even carry, money on Shabbat/Sabbath" unless there's a life-or-death emergency. If the only way to get to the hospital quickly enough to save a dying patient is to take a cab, you take a cab.
"I think that modern Kashrut Halacha might be VERY different if the Feds had lowered their threshold to 1.5% or 1% when R' Moshe Feinstein was still the leading Posek."
Miami Al, is this what you mean: If the US Dept. of Agriculture (and/or Food and Drug Administration?) were to tighten its requirement so that any ingredient comprising 1.5% of a food or beverage had to be listed, many more foods could be eaten without a hechsher? Please correct me if I misunderstood your statement.
Shira,
Had the guidelines been 1.5%, had the penalty for violating that been VERY severe (so that we could trust them), AND HAD THIS OCCURED WHEN R' Moshe Feinstein was the leading authority, then he MIGHT have ruled on foods not mattering.
If the USDA/FDA changed it to 1% tomorrow, Normative practice in the United States would not change.
I just don't know that this entire industry of supervision would have ever cropped up, or if we would simple have Food Stam. :)
The idea of food needing a stamp of approval is of relatively recent vintage.
All hypothetical. In general, if someone is TRYING to do the Kosher/Shomer Shabbat thing (which your friend obviously wasn't), it's pretty hard for them to ACTUALLY screw up... the fences upon fences upon fences keeps us pretty safe.
I would attribute this to ignorance, since her pushing the cake on you is either extremely obnoxious behavior, or her really not knowing that there is an issue.
"If the USDA/FDA changed it to 1% tomorrow, Normative practice in the United States would not change."
That's unfortunate, especially for our wallets.
"I just don't know that this entire industry of supervision would have ever cropped up, or if we would simple have Food Stam. :)"
I think that the kashrut-supervision industry may very well not have become the major industry that it is now, if Rav Feinstein had rule that Food Stam (regular, ordinary?), excluding meat (and dairy?), was kosher.
"The idea of food needing a stamp of approval is of relatively recent vintage."
In defense of the kashrut-supervision organizations/rabbis, the idea of food having ingredients in it that you have to be a chemist to create is also of relatively recent vintage. :(
" . . . her pushing the cake on you is either extremely obnoxious behavior, or her really not knowing that there is an issue."
I strongly suspect that she does not understand the issues involved. As for her being obnoxious, well, I've already been chided for showing public disapproval of those who follow the Ritual Committee's ruling re dairy baked goods, so I supposed it could be argued that I'm getting back what I've dished out.
Here’s a link to a list of items that don't need rabbinical supervision. Larry and Malka Esther Lennhoff were kind enough to recommend this website to us.
This is a great list! Thanks to Larry and Malka Esther Lennhoff.
As someone who often faces the same issues as you do, ie more stringencies upon myself than most people in my congregations (French C and French O), I see exactly what you mean.
It is quite ironical that even in an O shul (but most French shuls are O so you get all sorts of jews - which is not a bad thing) people do things that would amaze most American O people.
Yes, that is a helpful list. Larry is a frequent commenter here, and he and Malka Esther have been our hosts (directly and/or indirectly) several times within the past 12 months or so. I'm too lazy to link, 'cause there are several posts--type "Larry" into my blog's search window, and you'll see the posts.
"As someone who often faces the same issues as you do, ie more stringencies upon myself than most people in my congregations (French C and French O), I see exactly what you mean."
So you've "been there and done that, too? Oy.
"It is quite ironical that even in an O shul (but most French shuls are O so you get all sorts of jews - which is not a bad thing) people do things that would amaze most American O people."
My impression is that, in many parts of the world, non-Orthodox synagogues either don't exist or aren't accepted, so Jews of all levels of observance pray in Orthodox synagogues. The advantage is community unity. The disadvantage is that certain standards (such as standards of kashrut) can't be assumed.
"people do things that would amaze most American O people."
As Miami Al was saying, the rabbinical seal of approval is a relatively recent development. It seems to me that the widespread acceptance of "glatt" for meat, "chalav Yisrael" for dairy products, kemach yashan (old flour?) and Pat Yisrael (baked by a Jew?) for baked goods, and the meticulous inspection of fruits and vegetable for insect and worm infestation are also recent developments. Maybe some of these practices are not so widespread in Europe.
Shira,
Right, all I'm suggesting is that given the logic behind Cholov Stam (plain milk), where USDA rules are strict AND the enforcement of it serious enough, it is as though we saw it ourselves, so we can rely upon it. That's the basis for permitting plain milk. It was a new Halachic status, since prior anything not Cholov Yisrael (Jewish milk) was considered Cholov Akum (Gentile milk).
But, there are no modern, nearly universal accepted Poskim that looks for ways to be lenient within the framework of Orthodox Jewish Halacha.
My supposition was that his logic would also have applied to "ingredient reading" (which was somewhat normative practice 30+ years ago) MIGHT have been applied to all sorts of packaged goods had the nutritional guidelines been more stringent.
It is also a shame that the non-rennet based hard cheeses were not available and commonplace in his era, because we might have also had Gevinat Stam (plain cheese)... cheeses still have two status, Gevinat Yisrael and Gevinat Akum, hence the controversy with Tablet K/Cabot.
That one, in a nut shell, is that Cabot switched to non-animal rennet. Tablet K supervises the facility, but allows the non-animal rennet to be added via a mechanical process. The OU standards hold that the rennet, even non animal based, must be added by a Shomer Shabbat Jew, or the cheese has a status of Gevinat Akum... so even though the cheese is "kosher" because it is made in a completely kosher way, if you accept that reading, than the cheese is still forbidden as Gevinat Akum.
What makes this extremely silly is that in a modern automated factory, NOBODY adds the rennet. My understanding is that the implementation is that the line has a button to add the Rennet, and the Rabbi supervising the facility pushes the button... I'd imagine a light/buzzer goes off to tell him to press the button.
Cabot does OU runs from time to time, primarily for wholesale usages (companies that use the cheese and are under OU), and did an OU Retail run for Pesach. The company assures everyone that the process is the same, so presumably the difference is the OU has someone on site, instead of spot checks (since it's a limited run).
However, the way one achieves prominence today is to be stringent, NOT to look for ways to be lenient and encourage observance.
I have no insights into how this would have been handled, just my gut feel that the direction Kashrut has taken is mostly unnecessary and adds costs to our lives for negligible benefit.
". . . the way one achieves prominence today is to be stringent, NOT to look for ways to be lenient and encourage observance.
. . . my gut feel that the direction Kashrut has taken is mostly unnecessary and adds costs to our lives for negligible benefit."
That's the story, in a nutshell. :(
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